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Flint, Michigan: Urban Disaster, or Just Good Corporate Governance?  

spunkycumfun 63M/69F
41171 posts
1/29/2016 9:01 am

Thanks for the news on Flint; it was reported briefly here.
Since the 1980s I have witnessed the increasing lionisation (I hope that's a word!) of business managers and chief executives.
Governments here increasingly appoint these business people to top public sector jobs hoping that they can sprinklle some gold dust but the record is at best mixed and at worst a dimunition of a public service ethos undepinning many public servants.
Here the top 100 chief executives earn on average 183 times more than a full-time worker. This gap cannot be suatainable!


redrockrascal 65M
23580 posts
1/29/2016 11:16 am

    Quoting kzoopair:
    Attorney General Bill Schuette has appointed Todd Flood to investigate the administration. Todd Flood was a contributor to the campaigns of both Rick Snyder and Bill Schuette. So, they're committed to "investigating" themselves. What do you want to bet they'll find themselves blameless?

    The damage has been done in Flint. It can't be undone. But Snyder is still stonewalling against pleas to replace the old metal plumbing feeding water into Flint homes. Residents are frightened and they no longer trust this government- they want new piping, and they're skeptical about assurances that the corrosion inhibitors now being added to their water are effective.
Then this is a case where the Feds (DoJ and EPA at a minimum) must step in.

They should skeptical about what the corrosion inhibitors do to them when ingested too. This is where government and utility businesses have failed on the not so sexy subject of infrastructure maintenance.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.


redrockrascal 65M
23580 posts
1/29/2016 11:18 am

    Quoting kzoopair:
    It's inadequate if you defund it.
Exactly - "smaller" gov't isn't necessarily effective, just underfunded.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.


kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/29/2016 8:11 pm

    Quoting spunkycumfun:
    Thanks for the news on Flint; it was reported briefly here.
    Since the 1980s I have witnessed the increasing lionisation (I hope that's a word!) of business managers and chief executives.
    Governments here increasingly appoint these business people to top public sector jobs hoping that they can sprinklle some gold dust but the record is at best mixed and at worst a dimunition of a public service ethos undepinning many public servants.
    Here the top 100 chief executives earn on average 183 times more than a full-time worker. This gap cannot be suatainable!
It's a word here and we spell it with a "Z"...I think!

It's a part of American culture that has infected the rest of the world, unfortunately. The worst thing to happen to the US was the collapse of the Soviet Union. There was an enormous celebration that Ronald Reagan had singlehandedly crushed the Evil Empire while dressed in an ancient Notre Dame football uniform, although Maggie Thatcher did lick his codpiece clean. We won, we won we won! No, dumb ass, you're next. We still spend money on defense and the military at cold war levels but can't afford clean drinking water for sub standard human beings.

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/29/2016 8:17 pm

    Quoting redrockrascal:
    Then this is a case where the Feds (DoJ and EPA at a minimum) must step in.

    They should skeptical about what the corrosion inhibitors do to them when ingested too. This is where government and utility businesses have failed on the not so sexy subject of infrastructure maintenance.
And I think they're finally reading the memo. But congressional committees inquiring into this event are controlled by Republicans, and they're giving Rick Snyder a pass- so far. The minority Democrats are squealing about it, but it probably won't do them any good.

We have a budget surplus of 1.2 billion dollars that so far the Snyder administration is clutching to its breast as if it were the One Ring. "NO! You can't have it! It's mine!"

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/29/2016 8:20 pm

    Quoting redrockrascal:
    Exactly - "smaller" gov't isn't necessarily effective, just underfunded.
Thank you. If a government committed to deregulation appoints department heads with instructions to regulate nothing, and removes a reasonable budget allocation, just how much investigation and "regulating" will that department be capable of?

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/29/2016 8:26 pm

    Quoting  :

Your hometown IS messed up, sad to say. But it ain't the only one. Flint might just be the canary in the coal mine. This is what happens when you elect people who hate government to run the government. These are ideologues who refuse to see evidence that they were wrong. It's inconceivable to them. And in Michigan, they keep telling the same lies over and over, hoping that the lies will stick.

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sweet_VM 65F
81699 posts
1/30/2016 10:09 am

Like Kinky said being from Canada I really don't know much about it. Excellent article you posted here KZ. hugsssssssssssss V

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08540Tantrafun 60M  
1072 posts
1/30/2016 2:34 pm

KK, "If our government is us" Our government is so far removed from us, There is an election going on in Iran, where supreme council picks who can run. Then with great fanfare they have a multiparty election. Here in the U.S The supreme council(crony Capitalists) decides who's message gets out and who gets funding.

Google "War is a Racket" speech by 2 time Medal of Honor winner and the most decorated Marine in U.S history Gen Butler had to say. This depraved indifference to the common man didn't start 3 years ago in Flint. Also watch Youtube "Major General Smedley D. Butler Expose Fascist Coup in US. (1934)" also "CORPORATE FASCISM: The Destruction of America's Middle Class "

An excerpt:
"A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

In the World War a mere handful garnered the profits of the conflict.At least 21,000 new millionaires and billionaires were made in the United States during the World War. That many admitted their huge blood gains in their income tax returns. How many other war millionaires falsified their tax returns no one knows.

"Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, something to hope for.”― Immanuel Kant .


kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/30/2016 8:25 pm

    Quoting sweet_VM:
    Like Kinky said being from Canada I really don't know much about it. Excellent article you posted here KZ. hugsssssssssssss V
Thank you, V. She was getting riled up about it and wanted to get some of it off her chest. We've watched these guys try to dismantle our state systematically for years now. I hardly recognize the place where I grew up anymore.

Huggggs B

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08540Tantrafun 60M  
1072 posts
1/30/2016 9:24 pm

PD, Looks like you guys started a revolution. International news like U.K's Daily mail is focusing on St.luis, Apparently many other cities are in similar situation. EPA is trying to force utilities for about 10 million customers with lead pipe issue across the country to take remedial action. Some in the media are looking inwards and pleading guilty to racism and indifference towards the working poor. Politicians of both parties are getting really nervous as the media feeding frenzy has begun. Hopefully more people will come to my line of thinking and vote all incumbents out in the next election.

“Perhaps most disturbing is that there are likely hundreds of troubling events unfolding around the country at any time that are getting very little if any attention from the media,” Times deputy executive editor Matt Purdy told Margaret Sullivan. Indeed.


This could happen elsewhere. “Blink and you could be standing in Gary, Indiana, East St. Louis, Illinois, or Camden, New Jersey, watching a similar tragedy unfold. Factories close, the middle class takes flight to the suburbs to build better schools and tend to pristine lawns,” writes Goldie Taylor at The Daily Beast. At In These Times, Jacob Lederman provides some political context:

In a climate of austerity at both the state and national levels, and with Tea Party conservatives dominating the Republican Party, cuts to cash-strapped municipalities opened the door to claims that cities like Flint and Detroit were living beyond their means. With city budgets in the red, state authorities imposed new forms of market-based discipline on struggling municipal governments.

Michael Moore, perhaps Flint’s most famous resident, goes further in a column at The Huffington Post arguing for Gov. Rick Snyder to be arrested:

In Muskegon Heights, an emergency manager dissolved the public school system and turned it over to a for-profit charter school, only to have the company bail on the contract because, as the emergency manager put it, ‘the profit just simply wasn’t there.’ In Pontiac, emergency managers privatized or sold nearly all public services, outsourcing the city’s wastewater treatment to United Water months after the company was indicted on 26 counts of violating the Clean Water Act, including tampering with E. coli monitoring methods to cut corners on costs.

What now? Hard to say. A report by Rachel Maddow looking toward Flint’s future found that:

The pipes will have to be addressed in stages. In the short term, they’ll need to be re-coated with a film to hold in the lead. In the long term, the only fix is ripping them out — every mile of them. No American city has ever done it.

But lead is a toxin that causes permanent damage. For the estimated 9,000 children under the age of six who have been exposed, there may be no reversing the lifelong effects of this disaster."

"Rules for happiness: something to do, someone to love, something to hope for.”― Immanuel Kant .


kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/31/2016 8:53 am

    Quoting 08540Tantrafun:
    PD, Looks like you guys started a revolution. International news like U.K's Daily mail is focusing on St.luis, Apparently many other cities are in similar situation. EPA is trying to force utilities for about 10 million customers with lead pipe issue across the country to take remedial action. Some in the media are looking inwards and pleading guilty to racism and indifference towards the working poor. Politicians of both parties are getting really nervous as the media feeding frenzy has begun. Hopefully more people will come to my line of thinking and vote all incumbents out in the next election.

    “Perhaps most disturbing is that there are likely hundreds of troubling events unfolding around the country at any time that are getting very little if any attention from the media,” Times deputy executive editor Matt Purdy told Margaret Sullivan. Indeed.


    This could happen elsewhere. “Blink and you could be standing in Gary, Indiana, East St. Louis, Illinois, or Camden, New Jersey, watching a similar tragedy unfold. Factories close, the middle class takes flight to the suburbs to build better schools and tend to pristine lawns,” writes Goldie Taylor at The Daily Beast. At In These Times, Jacob Lederman provides some political context:

    In a climate of austerity at both the state and national levels, and with Tea Party conservatives dominating the Republican Party, cuts to cash-strapped municipalities opened the door to claims that cities like Flint and Detroit were living beyond their means. With city budgets in the red, state authorities imposed new forms of market-based discipline on struggling municipal governments.

    Michael Moore, perhaps Flint’s most famous resident, goes further in a column at The Huffington Post arguing for Gov. Rick Snyder to be arrested:

    In Muskegon Heights, an emergency manager dissolved the public school system and turned it over to a for-profit charter school, only to have the company bail on the contract because, as the emergency manager put it, ‘the profit just simply wasn’t there.’ In Pontiac, emergency managers privatized or sold nearly all public services, outsourcing the city’s wastewater treatment to United Water months after the company was indicted on 26 counts of violating the Clean Water Act, including tampering with E. coli monitoring methods to cut corners on costs.

    What now? Hard to say. A report by Rachel Maddow looking toward Flint’s future found that:

    The pipes will have to be addressed in stages. In the short term, they’ll need to be re-coated with a film to hold in the lead. In the long term, the only fix is ripping them out — every mile of them. No American city has ever done it.

    But lead is a toxin that causes permanent damage. For the estimated 9,000 children under the age of six who have been exposed, there may be no reversing the lifelong effects of this disaster."
I don't see any revolution yet. Plenty of people are angry about this, and fed up with Snyder and the legislature. But the worst thing I've heard that happened to Snyder was that he was heckled by a couple of women in an Ann Arbor restaurant. Most diners just looked on uncomfortably without backing them up. He'd have been wearing his dinner forty years ago in Ann Arbor. So, we'll see if something has been started or not. The media is hot for this topic at the moment, but a Kardashian may walk by and distract them.

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/31/2016 9:00 am

    Quoting rockkickass69v2:
    The American People are always made to suffer no matter what the issue.
    In the end they have deal with & pay for everything.
As near as I can tell, the people here aren't objecting to paying. That one point two billion dollar budget surplus? That's OURS, not Snyder's and not the statehouse's. They're concentrating on damage control, and begging people not to play the blame game- which, by the way is how most of them got elected, playing the blame game- but they don't want to dip too far into "their" precious surplus. Volunteer union plumbers began replacing pipes Saturday. The state estimates it'll take fifteen years to replace all those pipes- the plumbers say no. One thing is certain- it'll take a lot longer if the state never starts and won't pay for it.

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
1/31/2016 4:32 pm

    Quoting  :

Well, we are surprised and we are not surprised. He's made it clear that NOW he doesn't want to play the blame game. I wouldn't either if I were him. Me, I want to play the blame game. I'm anxious to see the blame placed. But the main thing is to get a handle on replacing the plumbing feeding into flint homes. General Motors complained quite some time ago that the water from the Flint river was corroding its parts. (The river is polluted with chlorides.) The state hustled to come up with $440,000 to get clean water to GM, and was trucking bottled water to its employees in the state building in Flint, all the while continuing to assure the citizens of Flint that the water from their taps was safe to drink. So, while relieving the city of Flint should be the top priority, I think we can still spare some energy to place blame.

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
2/3/2016 4:39 pm

    Quoting joisygirl:
    Ah but isn't this just the American way, capitalism at it's best. The quest for the almighty dollar at any cost. The health and welfare of the people is just collateral damage. It isn't at all surprising that government has adopted a corporate model. Maybe one day the whole system will be scrapped and become completely corporately owned. In the land of liberty and freedom we have very little choice in information, government or healthcare.

    In 1984 fifty corporations controlled all media, now just six corporations control ninety percent of the media in America -- Comcast, News-Corp, Disney, Viacom, Time Warner and CBS. All the news and information we have access to is stilted or is controlled by just a few corporations.

    The same can be said of the American farm. Family farms have disappeared in the wake of agribusiness and industrial farming. Farms that were held by one family for generations just cannot compete with the factory farms.

    Healthcare has become for-profit and investor owned. Since the 1920s there have been small for profit hospitals, owned by local groups of doctors. But since the enactment of Medicaid and Medicare and the pool of funds made available for healthcare, increasingly large national and multi-national corporations are vying for a piece of the pie, buying up non-profit hospitals and small proprietary for-profit hospitals. In 1920 forty percent of hospitals were for-profit, owned by local doctors. Today four large investor-owned enterprises—Hospital Corporation of America, Humana Inc., National Medical Enterprises Inc. and American Medical International Inc.—own or manage 53 percent of the investor-owned hospitals and 75 percent of the beds. This corporatization not only sacrifices patient health and sometimes lives, it has often destroyed healthcare workers’ pensions and health insurance benefits, and allowing mega-profitable companies to lay off large numbers of the union’s members or to eliminate positions entirely. Often replacing highly trained, experienced workers with inexperienced low wage or part-time employees.

    Private prisons are a $70 billion industry. The United States has only 5% of the world's population, it holds 25 percent of the world's total prisoners. Money is a huge reason we have so many prisoners. "Even crazier, 65 percent of private prison contracts require an occupancy guarantee. That means states must have a certain amount of prisoners -- typically between 80 and 90 percent of occupancy -- or pay companies for empty beds. Talk about bad incentives -- a state throws Money away if it does not have enough prisoners."

    I don't see the corporate model being good in any of these sectors, but it is especially troubling in government where our elected officials were placed there to serve the people. I don't see any promise of change on the horizon, just more of the same old same old.

    Maybe you are right. "Sooner or later, there will be blood."
You sound like me! Gimme a hug, Comrade Joisy!
This will continue as long as we allow it to. It's time for us to take a stand in Michigan. I don't know what the outcome will be, but we can't sit on our asses and just watch it happen anymore. It's time to make some noise.

And for the rest of the country, Flint is the canary in the coal mine.

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NaughtyInSO 113F
9755 posts
2/6/2016 7:51 pm

Sure, you remember Mel Brooks' "History of the world Pt.1", Roman Empire segment, where senators collectively exclaimed "F**K the poor!"
This is what's taking place here and consistently getting worse for at least a decade.

No matter which party wins elections, this will never change because all and every politician is there for his/her own gain. "F**k the poor" became a motto for every single one of them.

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kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
2/6/2016 8:34 pm

    Quoting NaughtyInSO:
    Sure, you remember Mel Brooks' "History of the world Pt.1", Roman Empire segment, where senators collectively exclaimed "F**K the poor!"
    This is what's taking place here and consistently getting worse for at least a decade.

    No matter which party wins elections, this will never change because all and every politician is there for his/her own gain. "F**k the poor" became a motto for every single one of them.
There are honest politicians, but they generally fall by the wayside. One thing that seems common to all revolutions is that the "ins" want to stay in, and the "outs" want to get in. And once they get in, they become the "ins". It's a constant struggle, and people get weary of constant struggle- everyone but the greedy gets tired of constant struggle. I'll only take issue with your time frame- it's been going on a lot longer than a decade. All we can do here is focus on this one place, and this one town, and try to get some justice for them. This is our home.

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biguy48722 64M
38 posts
2/11/2016 12:29 pm

The Flint water issue plus many other issue are a total government failure from the Feds to local and has become a political football now that it is an election year.


biguy48722 64M
38 posts
2/11/2016 12:59 pm

Where has the US Congress and Federal regulations been for the past 2 years?


biguy48722 64M
38 posts
2/11/2016 1:00 pm

I couldn't agree with you more.


biguy48722 64M
38 posts
2/11/2016 1:12 pm

You're in Portage, about 100 miles from Flint. I'm in Saginaw, about 30 miles away. You should pay attention to how corrupt so many local governments are and the Federal Government seems oblivious to all of it at least until recently. Maybe the neurosurgeon would make the best President to handle all of the long term health issues involved.


biguy48722 64M
38 posts
2/11/2016 1:18 pm

    Quoting positively4you:
    Where was the EPA during this water deal? I thought they watched everything.
    Or is that another inadequate gov't. entity?
positively4you 66F, It is you I couldn't agree with more. My apologies for not being clear in my earlier post.


kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
2/12/2016 8:54 am

    Quoting ChocolateNinja1:
    This will forever be known and HIS "Katrina" just as in former President George W. Bush case
I think that lets him off the hook. It's far too easy on him. George Bush didn't cause Katrina- it was a natural disaster, ill prepared for by the institutions that were supposed to be safeguarding the city and thoroughly predictable. Bush bungled the response with a sluggish reaction and me managed it badly politically, too. It can be demonstrated that Snyder caused the poisoning in Flint- willfully. Now he's trying to shuck the blame. That's human nature- who wouldn't try to get his ass off the hook? But he still should have to pay for it. There's a systemic problem here all right. When you put anti-government zealots in office, they do their best to destroy the way that good government institutions function, and then point to how they've failed as evidence that government can't work. It's easy to wreck something useful but a lot harder to make it work well. These conservatives have set an easy task for themselves. All they have to do is obstruct and dismantle good government.

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canyaz 56F
17128 posts
2/12/2016 12:18 pm

Well said. I know if something like that happened around here, we would be raising holy hell. I am shocked at the level of callous in MI's government...but then again, maybe not so shocked.
I won't even start on corporate America. Bastards.

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canyaz


kzoopair 73M/71F
25831 posts
2/12/2016 2:53 pm

    Quoting canyaz:
    Well said. I know if something like that happened around here, we would be raising holy hell. I am shocked at the level of callous in MI's government...but then again, maybe not so shocked.
    I won't even start on corporate America. Bastards.
We have common cause in despising the corporate takeover, conservatives and liberals alike. This used to be a good place to live, but it's changed radically since I was a young man.

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